Geekomon

Here's where Indietribe discusses the finer points of philosophy with Beatnik. I particularly like this conversation because it so closely mirrors Plato's Republic with Socrates idea that all people are inherently good, or want to be that way.

*Indietribe: eh, people in government aren't as evil indiviually as we all like to think they
are.

*Indietribe: It's just collectively, they have to toe the line, and it creates some stupid
decicsions that become very evil in the long run.

*Obnoxio: yes they are

*Indietribe: their just ppl. They don't want the country to go to hell. Most learned people
who've studied democracy really love the ideals

*@Trelew: Actually politics and corporatations are involved in this sick incestious relationship
that threatens sanity of most normal people

*Indietribe: I know i do. And i'm not even a WASP
*Obnoxio: Trelew knows his shit
*Indietribe: but individually, they want to do the right thing
*@Trelew: :D
*Indietribe: it's just that, in order to survive, they can't

*Obnoxio: Indie I can't beleive how naive you are, you think people are inherently good?

*@Trelew: I think some people have to prove their worth (just as you have to them) before you can consider them good

*Indietribe: yeah i subscribe to the Socrates school
*Indietribe: all ppl are inherently good, they just have been taught wrong.
*Indietribe: That injustice succeeds over justice. That mutual benefit is less than unilateral
gain.

*Obnoxio: and what about the starving babies in the street forced to work as prostitutes?
*Indietribe: the argument is that the evil ppl haven't been educated about the right way to do
things.
*Indietribe: Their ignorance in thinking that society rewards the unjust.
*Indietribe: They don't realize that it damages their mental health.

*Obnoxio: and what about the guy that takes wittle kittens and ties them up in a pillowcase, and throws them in a lake?
*Indietribe: that's why his life is fucked up. Go read the Dialogues.
*Obnoxio: we don't use the F word here Indie

*Indietribe: if society didn't believe in the inherent good, why have a corrections' system?
*lnsight: I wouldn't say the current US justice system is geared towards rehabilitation at all
*Indietribe: that's the only way Superman works as a character, by the way. Because of Socrates
*lnsight: addicts don't belong in jail
*lnsight: they belong in clinics
*lnsight: but some types of addicts they throw in jail until the jails are full and then they do
it some more

*Indietribe: practically it isn't, but philosophically, jails are suppose to rehabilitate. You
know, punishment as a tool for education
*Obnoxio: what about the guys that just smoke mota?
*Indietribe: it's just that the jails are implented stupid
*BeatNik: correction system?
*lnsight: I think there's a great emphasis on punishment
*BeatNik: hahaha
*BeatNik: it's just punishment
*BeatNik: with maybe a dash of rehabilitation
*Indietribe: why do you punish children?
*Indietribe: it's not to see them sad. it's so they don't do bad stuff again.
*BeatNik: sure it is
*BeatNik: people are not inherently good
*BeatNik: the only thing that people are inherently is people
*Indietribe: let's use the debate in the dialogues then.
*Indietribe: alright, what is a happy life?
*Indietribe: if you want to skip this, please read The Dialogues
*BeatNik: or perhaps, neither
*Indietribe: don't people want to be satisfied in life?
*BeatNik: no
*Obnoxio: no most people are happy to be unhappy
*Indietribe: can we safely assume that ALL ppl want to be happy in life?
*BeatNik: people think that they want to be satisfied
*BeatNik: not even close indie
*BeatNik: some people want to be "happy"
*BeatNik: some people want other people to feel sorry for them
*BeatNik: some people want other people to be afraid of them
*Indietribe: they may not know what happiness is. but they know that they want it.
*BeatNik: everyone is different
*Obnoxio: psychic vampires
*Indietribe: happiness is defined differently for different ppl okay
*BeatNik: bingo.. ob knows what I'm talking about
*Indietribe: let's just define happiness as things that make ppl happy
*BeatNik: like, for me, I tell a lot of jokes, an d I like making people laugh
*Indietribe: it may be that unhappiness is what makes ppl happy but the core definition remains the same
*BeatNik: but I also know that it's a form of symbiosis
*Indietribe: Can we go forward on that definition?
*BeatNik: why do you bother talking to other people
*BeatNik: control your part of the conversation but don't be grabbing my steering wheel, control freak
*Indietribe: i'm asking you a question no?
*Indietribe: technically, the ball is on your court.
*BeatNik: no, you're trying to steer the conversation the way you want it to go
*BeatNik: then I'm taking the ball and going home
*Indietribe: that's the Socratic method
*BeatNik: bye
*BeatNik: you ain't socrates
*Indietribe: he asks a series of questions in order to get somewhere
*Obnoxio: wasn't he trying to be the moderator last night too?
*BeatNik: yeah he was too wasn't he
*Indietribe: i'm not socrates but is it a wrong thing to apply knowledge?
*BeatNik: what?
*Indietribe: what are you afraid of? It's just a line of questioning

*BeatNik: dude, the stuff you are saying, if anythign is convincing me that you don't know what
the hell you are talking about
*BeatNik: "all people want to be happy"

*BeatNik: hahahaha
*Indietribe: i know, that's why i backtracked.
*Indietribe: you disagree with that.
*Indietribe: so how do you define a happy life?
*BeatNik: if by disagree you mean "think that it is a laughable oversimplification" then yes
*Indietribe: a template definition. it doesn't need to be exact.
*Indietribe: of course, it's just the first question, it'll build up as the ball gets rolling
*BeatNik: it depends what you mean by a happy life
*BeatNik: I think of myself as an extremely happy person
*BeatNik: in that I find the joy in every situation
*BeatNik: in that even what seem like negative experiences are fun for me
*Indietribe: but you think that this is different for every person.
*BeatNik: yes
*Indietribe: is a happy life = to a healthy life, for you?
*BeatNik: not neccessarily
*BeatNik: I like things like red meat and pasta and cheese
*BeatNik: while this may knock a few years off of my lifespan
*BeatNik: along with the smoking
*Indietribe: i meant, a mentally healthy life.
*BeatNik: I'd rather lose a few years at the end than do without these simple pleasures
*Indietribe: with no pyschiatry-bills on the counter.
*BeatNik: what?
*BeatNik: hell no
*BeatNik: I'm crazy as fuck
*Indietribe: A happy life, does it equal a mentally stable life for your head?
*BeatNik: and loving every minute of it
*BeatNik: shit no
*Obnoxio: no
*Indietribe: Are sick ppl happy?
*Indietribe: woudl they rather be not sick?
*BeatNik: mentally stable = stagnant = dead
*BeatNik: to my way of thinking
*Indietribe: do you feel bad when you are sick?
*BeatNik: no
*BeatNik: I don't mind having the occassional cold
*Indietribe: when you have a cold, does your body show symptoms?
*BeatNik: yes
*BeatNik: but I don't feel sad or bad about it
*Indietribe: would you rahter have it a temporary or lasting condition?
*BeatNik: temporary
*Obnoxio: when my syphilis acts up it shows symptoms too
*lnsight: eww
*BeatNik: but i'd rather have the occassional cold than not*lnsight: must be a canadian thing
*BeatNik: just for a change of pace
*lnsight: canada's that boring eh
*Indietribe: Most ppeole would prefer not to be sick.
*lnsight: yeah that would make sense
*BeatNik: most people are fucking pussies
*lnsight: most people aren't canadian
*Indietribe: but take it that most people would prefer not to be sick.
*Indietribe: so why wouldn't that apply to mental health?
*BeatNik: so, just because most people feel a certain way about something doesn't make it right
*BeatNik: if anything, if most people agree about something I am more likely to question it than
not

*lnsight: there are other reasons against being sick
*lnsight: but um, you're weird
*BeatNik: most people are sheep
*BeatNik: meatbots
*Indietribe: But let's go forward.
*lnsight: yeah ok, you're a rebel with a cough
*BeatNik: being led around the slaughterhouse floor by their gonads
*Indietribe: a happy life for you is one with temporary bouts of insanity but mostly

healthiness in the mind
*Indietribe: this is what you've stated.
*BeatNik: like a slug crawling across a razor blade
*BeatNik: you're nothing but a delivery boy
*BeatNik: sent to collect a bill for grocers
*BeatNik: the horror
*BeatNik: the horror
*Indietribe: now, how does one achieve healthiness in the mind?
*Obnoxio: I prefer random murder and mayhem
*lnsight: sure you do, silver
*Indietribe: you said that joys in everything you do makes your mind stable.
*BeatNik: no I didn't
*BeatNik: I said stability was equal to death
*Obnoxio: especially if it was you
*BeatNik: pay attention if you are going to converse
*BeatNik: stop trying to take the conversation where you think it should go man
*Indietribe: but an unstable mind also leads to death.
*BeatNik: no
*Indietribe: or to actions that are dangerous to society
*Indietribe: more so than a stable mind
*BeatNik: any mind that actually thinks is unstable
*Obnoxio: what xactly is a stable mind
*BeatNik: life is unstable
*Indietribe: so a healthy mind in your terms is unstable.
*BeatNik: yes
*Indietribe: and a unhealthy mind is too stable?
*BeatNik: yes
*Indietribe: we can go forward on taht definition.
*Indietribe: which is more likely to commit crimes?
*BeatNik: a mind that is striviing for stability is inevitably doomed to dissapointment and
failure

*Indietribe: a healthy mind or an unhealthy mind?
*Obnoxio: no we can't
*BeatNik: and eventually freaking the fuck out
*BeatNik: crimes?
*Indietribe: fine, not crimes but adverse effects.
*Indietribe: like depression or symptoms.
*Indietribe: it's the unhealthy, stable one.
*Indietribe: by your definition.
*Indietribe: People usually don't want to be unhealthy or suffer from symptoms, and if they do,
then only temporarily.
*Indietribe: Can we go forward on this statement?

*BeatNik: you say things like this as if you understand people
*BeatNik: I don't think you understand people
*Obnoxio: no we should in fact reverse
*Indietribe: i'm just aggregrating all the data said so far
*BeatNik: I don't think you really even understand yourself
*BeatNik: you're a robot
*BeatNik: trying to fit everything into little slots
*Indietribe: i think your apprehension comes from our discussion of the generality
*Indietribe: let's just discuss you.
*Indietribe: You don't want to be unhealthy for a long period of time.
*BeatNik: I think you also use big words as a kind of magical armour
*Indietribe: whether in the mind or int he body, truth?
*BeatNik: "oh no they are getting close to my secret hiding place! GENERALITY!!! APPREHENSION!!

ABRACADABRA!!!"
*BeatNik: hahhaa
*Indietribe: I'm not here to show you up.
*lnsight: those are big words?
*Indietribe: this line of questioning wasn't devised by me.
*Indietribe: blame socrates
*BeatNik: then what is your motivation?
*lnsight: I do
*lnsight: I piss on his grave daily
*Indietribe: to build from a kernel of knowledge and introduce you to the socratic method.
*BeatNik: see, that's something I can believe
*BeatNik: what insight said
*Obnoxio: let's talk about hippocrates instead
*Indietribe: we were discussing Socrates' idea that all ppl are inherently good.
*BeatNik: but if you are saying that you are doing this to help me you couldn't possibly be more
full of shit

*Indietribe: the next line of questioning has to do with does a healthy mind equate with a
healthy life.

*Indietribe: and then, you could prolly derive the rest of the argument from that.
*lnsight: well the problem with trying to adapt a dead guy's interrogation
*lnsight: you have to be flexible
*BeatNik: you are like an assembly robot in a car factoty
*BeatNik: factory
*lnsight: beatnik has ADD, What Would Socrates Do?
*lnsight: Socrates would give up
*Indietribe: because a healthy mind = healthy life, people, if they realize that vices cause

unhealthiness would stop doing that. Because in the long run, it causes them symptoms like
depression.

*BeatNik: and the rest of the people in the hub are the people who have accidentally wandered
into your path

*Indietribe: so satisfying your greed actually hurts you.
*lnsight: Socrates would be like "bring on the hemlock!"
*BeatNik: and we're just trying to get to the lunch room
*BeatNik: but you are trying to weld us
*BeatNik: and the sad thing is that you think that you're trying to help us!
*vaporizor: hemlock straight up goes down easy

*Indietribe: so if eveyrone was educated in the Socratic way, then you would realize that being
good is beneficial. So all ppl are inherently good because it's in theiir best interest to be
good.

*Indietribe: to do otherwise would be akin to ingesting poison. Even if it satisfies a momentary
desire such as greed or lust

*BeatNik: yes, because people ALWAYS behave in the manner most consistent with their best
interests

*BeatNik: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*Obnoxio: this is patently false Indie and reprehensible that you would waste our time like this
*Indietribe: i was going to go into the whole Dialogues debate with you guys but I don't
necessarily have the philosophical chops to carry it off.

*Indietribe: not without help anyways
*BeatNik: peoples decisions are generally speaking not based on logic

*whybother: all ppl are not inherently good although all people do posses the inherent ability
to be good

*BeatNik: they are generally based on feelings
*BeatNik: feelings are not logical
*Indietribe: we could also dicuss that statement.
*Obnoxio: I have noticed that the dumber a person is the more emotional they are
*Obnoxio: which is also why women are subpar to men
*Indietribe: because the veracity of that statmeent doesnt matter.
*lnsight: how true, hell with women
*BeatNik: eh.. I wouldn't say better or worse, just a different style of decision making
*Indietribe: people are inherently good but they have to be educated to discover that about
themselves.

*Obnoxio: they are good for fornication though
*Indietribe: by that education, you've already tried to make man more rational, and less
dependent on emotional decisions
*BeatNik: men lean more towards reason, women lean more towards emotion, but neither one is more correct in any objective sense
*Obnoxio: what do you mean by education
*Obnoxio: since when is opinion education?
*Indietribe: education, such as the debate we were having.
*Indietribe: starting from the definition of a healthy life onward
*BeatNik: because a reasonable decision is only correct when being analyzed from a framework of reason
*Indietribe: you start with the fact that you know nothing then work up some axioms, then derive from then onward.
*BeatNik: hahaha, you probably believe in an objective reality too, don't you
*Obnoxio: the current Crisis is the fault of James Robinson
*BeatNik: you big silly
*Indietribe: what else i subscribe doesn't factor into the conversation.
*BeatNik: stop talking like that you are very bad at it and it's starting to anger me
*whybother: Mr Mcgee dont make him angry you wouldn't like him when he's angry
*Indietribe: So enlighten me. Are you saying that men want to be unhealthy for long periods of
time?
*BeatNik: you're just a fat kid sitting with his mouth open at the end of a chocolate assembly
line
*Indietribe: Once they realize thier vices cause them mental unhealth, do you think they would
be so eager to pursue them?
*Indietribe: We are all students here. Please enlighten us.
*BeatNik: you aren't a student
*Obnoxio: do you think an addict even thinks about that or do you think he/she is thinking about the next fix?
*BeatNik: you're an ignorant arrogant punk
*Indietribe: fine, lovers of knowledge, then.
*lnsight: lovers of comics and cartoons
*lnsight: :-)
*BeatNik: parroting the words and methods of his betters without actually understanding them
*Indietribe: Please show me the error of my ways.
*lnsight: let's face it, we're mostly here for the picture books
*BeatNik: you're like a cardboard cutout of a traffic guard
*BeatNik: and behind that flat piece of cardboard is nothing but a bunch of snails and slugs
*Indietribe: alright, let's discuss the obnoxio hypothetical situation.
*Indietribe: not so hypothetical, but it's something to go on.
*Indietribe: Does an addict lead a happy life? Of course not.
*BeatNik: have you ever been an addict?
*Indietribe: Does his addiction destroy his place in society? damage it?
*BeatNik: what the hell do you think addiction is?
*Obnoxio: depends on what they are addicted to
*Indietribe: Beatnik, are you saying that being a crack addict actually benefits him?
*BeatNik: it's liking something so much that you would do anything for it
*Indietribe: let's use crack as an example, is that fine?
*BeatNik: not at akll
*BeatNik: all
*BeatNik: i'm not saying that liking something has anything to do with what's good for him
*BeatNik: and in that same vein
*Indietribe: we're talking about crack addiction here.
*Obnoxio: you don't use crack in your veins you smoke it
*BeatNik: what makes someone happy, in general, is not neccessarily what is best for him
*Obnoxio: tell that to a twinkie eater
*Indietribe: yes but they aren't seeing things in the long run.
*BeatNik: but the point is, you can't even be honest enough to admit that you are going on and
on and on about this shit primarily to feed YOUR EGO

*Indietribe: but let's go back to the crack addiction.
*Indietribe: let's see where it goes
*BeatNik: no you go ahead
*BeatNik: I'm going over there
*BeatNik: bye!
*Indietribe: that's unfair, you say such a illustrious point but you don't stay to process it
wiht us.
*BeatNik: what is this US shit?
*BeatNik: there is no US
*BeatNik: there's YOU
*BeatNik: there's me
*BeatNik: theres other people
*BeatNik: but you speak for no us
*Indietribe: I can't process it as fast as you. I need to build up on prior knowledge.
*BeatNik: what's to process?
*Indietribe: What makes someone happy, in general, is not neccesarily what's best for him.
*Indietribe: that's a huge statement. And I completely agree with it.
*BeatNik: it's not that huge of a statement, it's an obvious fact
*Indietribe: because it's happiness in the moment and fleeting.
*Indietribe: The repercussions are sometimes far worse.
*Indietribe: which is why education comes in play. So that ppl can see the repercussions of
vicious or evil actions.
*Indietribe: not just the temporary benefit.
*BeatNik: ...
*Obnoxio: lobotomy
*BeatNik: I'm gonna go play some video games
*Indietribe: alright. it's not entirefly fruitless. We've already agreed that "Momentary
happiness through vices does not lead to a healthy life."
*Indietribe: laters.

*NekoSama: Wow.

*BeatNik: no
*BeatNik: you've agreed that
*BeatNik: I said that what makes someone happy, in general, is not neccessarily what is best for him
*BeatNik: but then again
*BeatNik: what is PHYSICALLY bad for him might be exactly what he needs, mentally or emotionally
*BeatNik: it's all a trade off
*BeatNik: it's a balancing act
*BeatNik: but the point is
*Indietribe: so there's a situation where being addicted to crack is what a person needs?
*BeatNik: if you are trying to sit down and plan a perfect life for yourself you're going to end
up miserable
*BeatNik: the only way to be truly happy is to stop worrying about stupid shit all the time and
just mellow the fuck out

*BeatNik: now mellow the fuck out
*BeatNik: go have a pop tart or something
*BeatNik: jesus
*Indietribe: you must realize that i'm not as smart as you. I can only process one idea at a
time. I would like to discuss your physical statement.

*Obnoxio: how can a statement be physical?
*Indietribe: i cannot think of any situation where having a crack addiction is anyway beneficial
to a person. mentally or emeotionaly.
*Indietribe: *BeatNik: what is PHYSICALLY bad for him might be exactly what he needs, mentally or emotionally