Monday, February 06, 2006


Socrates' Dialgoues 2005

Here's where Indietribe discusses the finer points of philosophy with Beatnik. I particularly like this conversation because it so closely mirrors Plato's Republic with Socrates idea that all people are inherently good, or want to be that way.

*Indietribe: eh, people in government aren't as evil indiviually as we all like to think they

*Indietribe: It's just collectively, they have to toe the line, and it creates some stupid
decicsions that become very evil in the long run.

*Obnoxio: yes they are

*Indietribe: their just ppl. They don't want the country to go to hell. Most learned people
who've studied democracy really love the ideals

*@Trelew: Actually politics and corporatations are involved in this sick incestious relationship
that threatens sanity of most normal people

*Indietribe: I know i do. And i'm not even a WASP
*Obnoxio: Trelew knows his shit
*Indietribe: but individually, they want to do the right thing
*@Trelew: :D
*Indietribe: it's just that, in order to survive, they can't

*Obnoxio: Indie I can't beleive how naive you are, you think people are inherently good?

*@Trelew: I think some people have to prove their worth (just as you have to them) before you can consider them good

*Indietribe: yeah i subscribe to the Socrates school
*Indietribe: all ppl are inherently good, they just have been taught wrong.
*Indietribe: That injustice succeeds over justice. That mutual benefit is less than unilateral

*Obnoxio: and what about the starving babies in the street forced to work as prostitutes?
*Indietribe: the argument is that the evil ppl haven't been educated about the right way to do
*Indietribe: Their ignorance in thinking that society rewards the unjust.
*Indietribe: They don't realize that it damages their mental health.

*Obnoxio: and what about the guy that takes wittle kittens and ties them up in a pillowcase, and throws them in a lake?
*Indietribe: that's why his life is fucked up. Go read the Dialogues.
*Obnoxio: we don't use the F word here Indie

*Indietribe: if society didn't believe in the inherent good, why have a corrections' system?
*lnsight: I wouldn't say the current US justice system is geared towards rehabilitation at all
*Indietribe: that's the only way Superman works as a character, by the way. Because of Socrates
*lnsight: addicts don't belong in jail
*lnsight: they belong in clinics
*lnsight: but some types of addicts they throw in jail until the jails are full and then they do
it some more

*Indietribe: practically it isn't, but philosophically, jails are suppose to rehabilitate. You
know, punishment as a tool for education
*Obnoxio: what about the guys that just smoke mota?
*Indietribe: it's just that the jails are implented stupid
*BeatNik: correction system?
*lnsight: I think there's a great emphasis on punishment
*BeatNik: hahaha
*BeatNik: it's just punishment
*BeatNik: with maybe a dash of rehabilitation
*Indietribe: why do you punish children?
*Indietribe: it's not to see them sad. it's so they don't do bad stuff again.
*BeatNik: sure it is
*BeatNik: people are not inherently good
*BeatNik: the only thing that people are inherently is people
*Indietribe: let's use the debate in the dialogues then.
*Indietribe: alright, what is a happy life?
*Indietribe: if you want to skip this, please read The Dialogues
*BeatNik: or perhaps, neither
*Indietribe: don't people want to be satisfied in life?
*BeatNik: no
*Obnoxio: no most people are happy to be unhappy
*Indietribe: can we safely assume that ALL ppl want to be happy in life?
*BeatNik: people think that they want to be satisfied
*BeatNik: not even close indie
*BeatNik: some people want to be "happy"
*BeatNik: some people want other people to feel sorry for them
*BeatNik: some people want other people to be afraid of them
*Indietribe: they may not know what happiness is. but they know that they want it.
*BeatNik: everyone is different
*Obnoxio: psychic vampires
*Indietribe: happiness is defined differently for different ppl okay
*BeatNik: bingo.. ob knows what I'm talking about
*Indietribe: let's just define happiness as things that make ppl happy
*BeatNik: like, for me, I tell a lot of jokes, an d I like making people laugh
*Indietribe: it may be that unhappiness is what makes ppl happy but the core definition remains the same
*BeatNik: but I also know that it's a form of symbiosis
*Indietribe: Can we go forward on that definition?
*BeatNik: why do you bother talking to other people
*BeatNik: control your part of the conversation but don't be grabbing my steering wheel, control freak
*Indietribe: i'm asking you a question no?
*Indietribe: technically, the ball is on your court.
*BeatNik: no, you're trying to steer the conversation the way you want it to go
*BeatNik: then I'm taking the ball and going home
*Indietribe: that's the Socratic method
*BeatNik: bye
*BeatNik: you ain't socrates
*Indietribe: he asks a series of questions in order to get somewhere
*Obnoxio: wasn't he trying to be the moderator last night too?
*BeatNik: yeah he was too wasn't he
*Indietribe: i'm not socrates but is it a wrong thing to apply knowledge?
*BeatNik: what?
*Indietribe: what are you afraid of? It's just a line of questioning

*BeatNik: dude, the stuff you are saying, if anythign is convincing me that you don't know what
the hell you are talking about
*BeatNik: "all people want to be happy"

*BeatNik: hahahaha
*Indietribe: i know, that's why i backtracked.
*Indietribe: you disagree with that.
*Indietribe: so how do you define a happy life?
*BeatNik: if by disagree you mean "think that it is a laughable oversimplification" then yes
*Indietribe: a template definition. it doesn't need to be exact.
*Indietribe: of course, it's just the first question, it'll build up as the ball gets rolling
*BeatNik: it depends what you mean by a happy life
*BeatNik: I think of myself as an extremely happy person
*BeatNik: in that I find the joy in every situation
*BeatNik: in that even what seem like negative experiences are fun for me
*Indietribe: but you think that this is different for every person.
*BeatNik: yes
*Indietribe: is a happy life = to a healthy life, for you?
*BeatNik: not neccessarily
*BeatNik: I like things like red meat and pasta and cheese
*BeatNik: while this may knock a few years off of my lifespan
*BeatNik: along with the smoking
*Indietribe: i meant, a mentally healthy life.
*BeatNik: I'd rather lose a few years at the end than do without these simple pleasures
*Indietribe: with no pyschiatry-bills on the counter.
*BeatNik: what?
*BeatNik: hell no
*BeatNik: I'm crazy as fuck
*Indietribe: A happy life, does it equal a mentally stable life for your head?
*BeatNik: and loving every minute of it
*BeatNik: shit no
*Obnoxio: no
*Indietribe: Are sick ppl happy?
*Indietribe: woudl they rather be not sick?
*BeatNik: mentally stable = stagnant = dead
*BeatNik: to my way of thinking
*Indietribe: do you feel bad when you are sick?
*BeatNik: no
*BeatNik: I don't mind having the occassional cold
*Indietribe: when you have a cold, does your body show symptoms?
*BeatNik: yes
*BeatNik: but I don't feel sad or bad about it
*Indietribe: would you rahter have it a temporary or lasting condition?
*BeatNik: temporary
*Obnoxio: when my syphilis acts up it shows symptoms too
*lnsight: eww
*BeatNik: but i'd rather have the occassional cold than not*lnsight: must be a canadian thing
*BeatNik: just for a change of pace
*lnsight: canada's that boring eh
*Indietribe: Most ppeole would prefer not to be sick.
*lnsight: yeah that would make sense
*BeatNik: most people are fucking pussies
*lnsight: most people aren't canadian
*Indietribe: but take it that most people would prefer not to be sick.
*Indietribe: so why wouldn't that apply to mental health?
*BeatNik: so, just because most people feel a certain way about something doesn't make it right
*BeatNik: if anything, if most people agree about something I am more likely to question it than

*lnsight: there are other reasons against being sick
*lnsight: but um, you're weird
*BeatNik: most people are sheep
*BeatNik: meatbots
*Indietribe: But let's go forward.
*lnsight: yeah ok, you're a rebel with a cough
*BeatNik: being led around the slaughterhouse floor by their gonads
*Indietribe: a happy life for you is one with temporary bouts of insanity but mostly

healthiness in the mind
*Indietribe: this is what you've stated.
*BeatNik: like a slug crawling across a razor blade
*BeatNik: you're nothing but a delivery boy
*BeatNik: sent to collect a bill for grocers
*BeatNik: the horror
*BeatNik: the horror
*Indietribe: now, how does one achieve healthiness in the mind?
*Obnoxio: I prefer random murder and mayhem
*lnsight: sure you do, silver
*Indietribe: you said that joys in everything you do makes your mind stable.
*BeatNik: no I didn't
*BeatNik: I said stability was equal to death
*Obnoxio: especially if it was you
*BeatNik: pay attention if you are going to converse
*BeatNik: stop trying to take the conversation where you think it should go man
*Indietribe: but an unstable mind also leads to death.
*BeatNik: no
*Indietribe: or to actions that are dangerous to society
*Indietribe: more so than a stable mind
*BeatNik: any mind that actually thinks is unstable
*Obnoxio: what xactly is a stable mind
*BeatNik: life is unstable
*Indietribe: so a healthy mind in your terms is unstable.
*BeatNik: yes
*Indietribe: and a unhealthy mind is too stable?
*BeatNik: yes
*Indietribe: we can go forward on taht definition.
*Indietribe: which is more likely to commit crimes?
*BeatNik: a mind that is striviing for stability is inevitably doomed to dissapointment and

*Indietribe: a healthy mind or an unhealthy mind?
*Obnoxio: no we can't
*BeatNik: and eventually freaking the fuck out
*BeatNik: crimes?
*Indietribe: fine, not crimes but adverse effects.
*Indietribe: like depression or symptoms.
*Indietribe: it's the unhealthy, stable one.
*Indietribe: by your definition.
*Indietribe: People usually don't want to be unhealthy or suffer from symptoms, and if they do,
then only temporarily.
*Indietribe: Can we go forward on this statement?

*BeatNik: you say things like this as if you understand people
*BeatNik: I don't think you understand people
*Obnoxio: no we should in fact reverse
*Indietribe: i'm just aggregrating all the data said so far
*BeatNik: I don't think you really even understand yourself
*BeatNik: you're a robot
*BeatNik: trying to fit everything into little slots
*Indietribe: i think your apprehension comes from our discussion of the generality
*Indietribe: let's just discuss you.
*Indietribe: You don't want to be unhealthy for a long period of time.
*BeatNik: I think you also use big words as a kind of magical armour
*Indietribe: whether in the mind or int he body, truth?
*BeatNik: "oh no they are getting close to my secret hiding place! GENERALITY!!! APPREHENSION!!

*BeatNik: hahhaa
*Indietribe: I'm not here to show you up.
*lnsight: those are big words?
*Indietribe: this line of questioning wasn't devised by me.
*Indietribe: blame socrates
*BeatNik: then what is your motivation?
*lnsight: I do
*lnsight: I piss on his grave daily
*Indietribe: to build from a kernel of knowledge and introduce you to the socratic method.
*BeatNik: see, that's something I can believe
*BeatNik: what insight said
*Obnoxio: let's talk about hippocrates instead
*Indietribe: we were discussing Socrates' idea that all ppl are inherently good.
*BeatNik: but if you are saying that you are doing this to help me you couldn't possibly be more
full of shit

*Indietribe: the next line of questioning has to do with does a healthy mind equate with a
healthy life.

*Indietribe: and then, you could prolly derive the rest of the argument from that.
*lnsight: well the problem with trying to adapt a dead guy's interrogation
*lnsight: you have to be flexible
*BeatNik: you are like an assembly robot in a car factoty
*BeatNik: factory
*lnsight: beatnik has ADD, What Would Socrates Do?
*lnsight: Socrates would give up
*Indietribe: because a healthy mind = healthy life, people, if they realize that vices cause

unhealthiness would stop doing that. Because in the long run, it causes them symptoms like

*BeatNik: and the rest of the people in the hub are the people who have accidentally wandered
into your path

*Indietribe: so satisfying your greed actually hurts you.
*lnsight: Socrates would be like "bring on the hemlock!"
*BeatNik: and we're just trying to get to the lunch room
*BeatNik: but you are trying to weld us
*BeatNik: and the sad thing is that you think that you're trying to help us!
*vaporizor: hemlock straight up goes down easy

*Indietribe: so if eveyrone was educated in the Socratic way, then you would realize that being
good is beneficial. So all ppl are inherently good because it's in theiir best interest to be

*Indietribe: to do otherwise would be akin to ingesting poison. Even if it satisfies a momentary
desire such as greed or lust

*BeatNik: yes, because people ALWAYS behave in the manner most consistent with their best

*Obnoxio: this is patently false Indie and reprehensible that you would waste our time like this
*Indietribe: i was going to go into the whole Dialogues debate with you guys but I don't
necessarily have the philosophical chops to carry it off.

*Indietribe: not without help anyways
*BeatNik: peoples decisions are generally speaking not based on logic

*whybother: all ppl are not inherently good although all people do posses the inherent ability
to be good

*BeatNik: they are generally based on feelings
*BeatNik: feelings are not logical
*Indietribe: we could also dicuss that statement.
*Obnoxio: I have noticed that the dumber a person is the more emotional they are
*Obnoxio: which is also why women are subpar to men
*Indietribe: because the veracity of that statmeent doesnt matter.
*lnsight: how true, hell with women
*BeatNik: eh.. I wouldn't say better or worse, just a different style of decision making
*Indietribe: people are inherently good but they have to be educated to discover that about

*Obnoxio: they are good for fornication though
*Indietribe: by that education, you've already tried to make man more rational, and less
dependent on emotional decisions
*BeatNik: men lean more towards reason, women lean more towards emotion, but neither one is more correct in any objective sense
*Obnoxio: what do you mean by education
*Obnoxio: since when is opinion education?
*Indietribe: education, such as the debate we were having.
*Indietribe: starting from the definition of a healthy life onward
*BeatNik: because a reasonable decision is only correct when being analyzed from a framework of reason
*Indietribe: you start with the fact that you know nothing then work up some axioms, then derive from then onward.
*BeatNik: hahaha, you probably believe in an objective reality too, don't you
*Obnoxio: the current Crisis is the fault of James Robinson
*BeatNik: you big silly
*Indietribe: what else i subscribe doesn't factor into the conversation.
*BeatNik: stop talking like that you are very bad at it and it's starting to anger me
*whybother: Mr Mcgee dont make him angry you wouldn't like him when he's angry
*Indietribe: So enlighten me. Are you saying that men want to be unhealthy for long periods of
*BeatNik: you're just a fat kid sitting with his mouth open at the end of a chocolate assembly
*Indietribe: Once they realize thier vices cause them mental unhealth, do you think they would
be so eager to pursue them?
*Indietribe: We are all students here. Please enlighten us.
*BeatNik: you aren't a student
*Obnoxio: do you think an addict even thinks about that or do you think he/she is thinking about the next fix?
*BeatNik: you're an ignorant arrogant punk
*Indietribe: fine, lovers of knowledge, then.
*lnsight: lovers of comics and cartoons
*lnsight: :-)
*BeatNik: parroting the words and methods of his betters without actually understanding them
*Indietribe: Please show me the error of my ways.
*lnsight: let's face it, we're mostly here for the picture books
*BeatNik: you're like a cardboard cutout of a traffic guard
*BeatNik: and behind that flat piece of cardboard is nothing but a bunch of snails and slugs
*Indietribe: alright, let's discuss the obnoxio hypothetical situation.
*Indietribe: not so hypothetical, but it's something to go on.
*Indietribe: Does an addict lead a happy life? Of course not.
*BeatNik: have you ever been an addict?
*Indietribe: Does his addiction destroy his place in society? damage it?
*BeatNik: what the hell do you think addiction is?
*Obnoxio: depends on what they are addicted to
*Indietribe: Beatnik, are you saying that being a crack addict actually benefits him?
*BeatNik: it's liking something so much that you would do anything for it
*Indietribe: let's use crack as an example, is that fine?
*BeatNik: not at akll
*BeatNik: all
*BeatNik: i'm not saying that liking something has anything to do with what's good for him
*BeatNik: and in that same vein
*Indietribe: we're talking about crack addiction here.
*Obnoxio: you don't use crack in your veins you smoke it
*BeatNik: what makes someone happy, in general, is not neccessarily what is best for him
*Obnoxio: tell that to a twinkie eater
*Indietribe: yes but they aren't seeing things in the long run.
*BeatNik: but the point is, you can't even be honest enough to admit that you are going on and
on and on about this shit primarily to feed YOUR EGO

*Indietribe: but let's go back to the crack addiction.
*Indietribe: let's see where it goes
*BeatNik: no you go ahead
*BeatNik: I'm going over there
*BeatNik: bye!
*Indietribe: that's unfair, you say such a illustrious point but you don't stay to process it
wiht us.
*BeatNik: what is this US shit?
*BeatNik: there is no US
*BeatNik: there's YOU
*BeatNik: there's me
*BeatNik: theres other people
*BeatNik: but you speak for no us
*Indietribe: I can't process it as fast as you. I need to build up on prior knowledge.
*BeatNik: what's to process?
*Indietribe: What makes someone happy, in general, is not neccesarily what's best for him.
*Indietribe: that's a huge statement. And I completely agree with it.
*BeatNik: it's not that huge of a statement, it's an obvious fact
*Indietribe: because it's happiness in the moment and fleeting.
*Indietribe: The repercussions are sometimes far worse.
*Indietribe: which is why education comes in play. So that ppl can see the repercussions of
vicious or evil actions.
*Indietribe: not just the temporary benefit.
*BeatNik: ...
*Obnoxio: lobotomy
*BeatNik: I'm gonna go play some video games
*Indietribe: alright. it's not entirefly fruitless. We've already agreed that "Momentary
happiness through vices does not lead to a healthy life."
*Indietribe: laters.

*NekoSama: Wow.

*BeatNik: no
*BeatNik: you've agreed that
*BeatNik: I said that what makes someone happy, in general, is not neccessarily what is best for him
*BeatNik: but then again
*BeatNik: what is PHYSICALLY bad for him might be exactly what he needs, mentally or emotionally
*BeatNik: it's all a trade off
*BeatNik: it's a balancing act
*BeatNik: but the point is
*Indietribe: so there's a situation where being addicted to crack is what a person needs?
*BeatNik: if you are trying to sit down and plan a perfect life for yourself you're going to end
up miserable
*BeatNik: the only way to be truly happy is to stop worrying about stupid shit all the time and
just mellow the fuck out

*BeatNik: now mellow the fuck out
*BeatNik: go have a pop tart or something
*BeatNik: jesus
*Indietribe: you must realize that i'm not as smart as you. I can only process one idea at a
time. I would like to discuss your physical statement.

*Obnoxio: how can a statement be physical?
*Indietribe: i cannot think of any situation where having a crack addiction is anyway beneficial
to a person. mentally or emeotionaly.
*Indietribe: *BeatNik: what is PHYSICALLY bad for him might be exactly what he needs, mentally or emotionally

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